tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9159484030669168383.post4029981046299989777..comments2023-06-23T09:04:45.671-07:00Comments on Null Signifier: The Quest for Meaningful World PvP, Part II - Asymmetry and Fairness in Persistent WorldsDuke of Ohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09716600365355282982noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9159484030669168383.post-76660327483850837552013-10-18T04:46:04.217-07:002013-10-18T04:46:04.217-07:00I've been meaning to reply for a while but I j...I've been meaning to reply for a while but I just get sidetracked with other things.*Duke of Ohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09716600365355282982noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9159484030669168383.post-30688107649260294432013-10-18T04:42:23.408-07:002013-10-18T04:42:23.408-07:00I disagree with your argument that waiting or logg...I disagree with your argument that waiting or logging off is "not playing the game". As far as I'm concerned, doing anything which is designed to produce an in-game result is playing the game, i.e the meta-game. Does researching fights for raids, watching raid videos or looking up optimal builds outside the game itself constitute "playing the game?" Of course it does, because it is designed to produce an in-game result (i.e. downing the boss). Similarly, waiting for five minutes or switching to an alt is a meta-gaming strategy used to produce an in-game result, namely shaking off a ganker who is camping you.<br /><br />If you're still not convinced, consider that timezones in EVE Online and Darkfall are of the utmost importance, so much so that fleets, raids and major battles are organised around them. Reinforcement timers allow coalitions time to muster and fight battles at the times most advantageous to them. Read William Arcturus' blog (The Ancient Gaming Noob) on EVE, and observe how a simple thing as relocating to another system has to be planned carefully and in advance, because he has to travel through hostile territory to get there. In his words, "having another game to play when EVE isn't cooperating with your plans is a good idea." EVE players seem to take it for granted that the virtual world has its own rhythms and that it is the players that have to adjust for it. Ask a WoW player to take a five minute break to avoid a ganker and suddenly they have conniption fits.<br /><br />In the end it comes down to personal choice as to what kind of virtual world you want to inhabit. If you value your time and are unwilling to put up with interruptions to your play sessions, then PvE worlds are for you. If you want to live in a world which marches to the beat of its own drum irrespective of what YOU want, then you couldn't do worse than try the living worlds of EVE and Darkfall.<br /><br />Sorry for the late reply mate, I've been to reply for a while, but I just get sidetracked with other things.Duke of Ohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09716600365355282982noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9159484030669168383.post-14911488179698821192013-09-19T22:03:04.611-07:002013-09-19T22:03:04.611-07:00I do love this topic right now. It's got me tr...I do love this topic right now. It's got me trying to really dissect PvP systems in a way I haven't tried before. I'm sure I will write something about PvP design in the near future. Thank you all for keeping the discussion alive. I think it's extremely interesting because it has so much room for varying perspectives.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9159484030669168383.post-78975635327377927402013-09-19T15:24:16.610-07:002013-09-19T15:24:16.610-07:00"As for WoW being unfair because it doesn'..."As for WoW being unfair because it doesn't offer any valid choices - ah man, we are never going to agree on that one. :D"<br /><br />You're a new player who started as a night elf and has followed quests to Ashenvale (and thus you likely don't know anyone). You are ganked by a level 90 who hovers over your corpse with their 310% speed flying mount (410% of base speed).<br /><br />What are your options?<br /><br />If you simply rez, you'll be ganked again.<br /><br />You don't have any friends to call on.<br /><br />You can ask in general chat in the hopes of a level 90 is there for some reason (unlikely and let's assume one isn't in this case).<br /><br />You could ask if anyone in general chat would be willing to log onto their 90 to try to drive this ganker away (likely no - better for them to let the ganker camp you instead of someone else and thus possibly them).<br /><br />You can't hearth since you'll be killed before you can get your cast off.<br /><br />There's no scouting involved (the guy is clearly camping you).<br /><br />You basically have three options as far as I can tell:<br /><br />1, wait for him to get bored and leave (in other words, don't play the game)<br /><br />2, log off (in other words, don't play the game)<br /><br />3, spirit rez and hearth<br /><br />#3 gets you rez sickness and doesn't even solve your problem. You likely have no idea other level 20-25 zones even exist but I suppose you could try to find them and figure out how to get there - no trivial task for a new player.<br /><br />But while you're doing that and waiting for rez sickness to wear off, you're still not playing the game.<br /><br />Maybe you think #3 is a valid choice. I still think it's a really awful option.Balkothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12425374556730828853noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9159484030669168383.post-70304262997003889542013-09-19T05:47:22.675-07:002013-09-19T05:47:22.675-07:00Hi Doone,
Thanks for swinging by - I meant to rep...Hi Doone,<br /><br />Thanks for swinging by - I meant to reply earlier but work kept me busy.<br /><br />"FFA PvP, at the end of the day, is scarce content that cannot stand as the center of any game." So true, otherwise I'd just play Counterstrike and Team Fortress 2 over and over again and be done with MMOs. Something has to be at stake to incentivize fighting and make it mean more than the fight itself to make world PvP "meaningful". In balanced games like StarCraft and Arena/Rated BGs the incentive is to advance on the ladder and to push rating. It's different in persistent worlds, and I actually started these posts on "the quest for meaningful world PvP" as a way of trying to work out how to create satisfying incentives for fighting. I think MMOs have great ways of incentivizing open world PvP in a way that will make mean more than just random skirmishes on a map, and it seems that only a select few titles do this well. I think controlling real estate on a map is a great way to make fights mean something more than just a free for all brawl. The big fight in EVE in July was over territory, and the fighting and the political maneuvering involved in that struggle was tremendously interesting for me. That for me is meaningful world PvP done right.<br /><br />I think OWPvP in WoW is bad because it isn't meaningful - the fights have no meaning beyond what the players bring themselves (RP, rivalry, a desire to brawl). As for WoW being unfair because it doesn't offer any valid choices - ah man, we are never going to agree on that one. :D But I agree WoW OWPvP is bad for a number of reasons.<br /><br />I think you're right that MMO gamers by in large prefer consensual gaming and your point on trammel is well taken. However let's not forget the biggest game in the world (League of Legends with 32 million players monthly) is based on PvP. So don't underestimate us PvPers. We're a viable demographic. ;)<br /><br />Thanks for coming by and taking the time to read and comment. I'm looking at your post The Virtual Life at the moment as well a few others (Milady's The Gaming Dilemma, Syl's Ain't No Shame Where There's Fun, Jane McGonigal's The Game That Can Give You 10 Extra Years of Life, etc.). I'm trying to figure out a reply to Milady's question on your post, which is what the philosophical bases of choosing real life over a virtual one were, but it's currently doing my head in, so I'm taking my time over it.Duke of Ohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09716600365355282982noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9159484030669168383.post-6549456344768829812013-09-18T21:56:52.636-07:002013-09-18T21:56:52.636-07:00Your closing thoughts are very interesting :) The ...Your closing thoughts are very interesting :) The opposite is true for me. <br /><br />But here's something else to consider as well: players who want the kind of "might is right" PvP environment are in the very small minority and always have been. I think it says something that most MMO players do not prefer FFA PvP of any kind and we know this by the numbers (FFA pvp games, number of PvP realm types, amount of PvP activity in the open world, etc). And this has been true since Ultima, one of the original FFA PvP MMOs. Trammel continues to be a powerful symbol of the utter rejection of that kind of PvP by the general playerbase :) Gamers, by and large, prefer consensual gaming. <br /><br />OWPvP in games like WoW is unfair because it doesn't offer the player any valid choices. For the choice to be valid it can't involve *not* playing the game. <br /><br />EVE Online is unique and could have an article all it's own dissecting how it does PvP and why it's mostly very enjoyable. But what I want to point out is that EVE is a deeply political and economic game, giving PvP all of its meaning. The asymetry largely balanced in EVE towards fairness. It's got a criminal justice system, security system, powerful AI corps to back it all up ...and of course many lands where lawlessness is the name of the game.And this is why EVE works.<br /><br />Still, the bulk of any given gameplay session in EVE is quiet and boring. I mean, passionate arguments like yours paint a picture of OWPVP lovers spending all day and night just ganking and being ganked because it's so awesome! And it's just not -- most of the time players are doing other things. PvE type things. FFA PvP, at the end of the day, is scarce content that cannot stand as the center of any game. Meaningful PvP just doesn't happen very often in the open world. Open world is overrated. If most of the time nothing is happening, that's a tough sell. And most of the time in open worlds, nothing meaningful is happening. It's gameplay value as a feature is questionable for that reason alone.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com