tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9159484030669168383.post5790281680407740968..comments2023-06-23T09:04:45.671-07:00Comments on Null Signifier: The Quest For Meaningful World PvP, Part I - Eve Online and WoWDuke of Ohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09716600365355282982noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9159484030669168383.post-19163710130326794382013-09-16T09:48:52.915-07:002013-09-16T09:48:52.915-07:00I'm afraid I missed out on this post entirely....I'm afraid I missed out on this post entirely. I would have visited weeks ago! Don't be shy about linking to relevant material in comments, as long as its allowed :) I do hate to miss a good discussion.<br /><br />I think it is as you described, truthfully. My key beefs with world PvP are griefers (not to be confused with gankers, who more or less ambush you and is to be expected; it goes in with the feeling of danger and hostile ambience Milady spoke of) and general unfair design. I don't find it fun or interesting to play unfair games no matter what form they come in. I also think that, fundamentally, PvP games follow the same ethos regardless of genre. Where devs usually differ is on the execution ...and some devs are just better at understanding and designing PvP than others. Blizzard devs on the WoW team have never had a clue. PvE was their expertise. These days they're kinda amateurs at everything :)<br /><br />EVE Online mostly hits the nail on the head for open world PvP. I've always admired it and I usually subscribe for a couple months a year like clock work because of it. While griefers exist in EVE, if you play the game right (that is, strategically) you can almost certainly avoid them. EVE is about planning and execution, about who has the longest view of outcomes and I've never had it NOT pay off to do strategic planning when making long hauls into deep space (being a tower defense/puzzler type gamer I like the thrill of learning how to avoid battles or mitigate them). In other words, while griefing exists all players have useful tools to avoid and escape bad situations. The game is flat out designed better and is thus much more enjoyable than WoW open world PvP. <br /><br />Great discussion! I'll gladly continue it if there are more points to debate. I think I will follow-up this discussion with an article of my own next week.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9159484030669168383.post-35094298810662773402013-08-10T19:18:36.035-07:002013-08-10T19:18:36.035-07:00At this point in my gaming life the ideal world wo...At this point in my gaming life the ideal world would be the one the people closest to me are happiest in playing. Your post on the Gaming Dilemma posed the question: "Is achieving something in a game a real achievement?" My personal answer is that yes, it is, if it is done with people you care about. To paraphrase Christopher McCandless - happiness is only real if shared. I have no regrets wandering around Blackrock Deep with my friends and family for three hours completely lost because we did it as a group. I regret the hours and hours of my life wasted in university playing Counterstrike over and over again against random strangers because all it did was "distract me from myself" (to use your words again). For all the vilification of WoW its very accessibility is also its greatest strength - I have been able to introduce people who would otherwise never have played computer games to the wonderful world of gaming. I was somewhat offended by Wolfshead disparaging claim of the "11 million zombies" playing WoW - some of those zombies are the most successful, talented and wonderful human beings I have had the good fortune to know IRL. Yet in my heart of hearts I know that he is right, that we are settling for something less if we accept WoW as it is now as the benchmark for MMOs.<br /><br />I've also come to realize, however, that the worlds I would be happy in would be toxic wastelands for others. I rate EVE Online highly, but I can see the reasons for its modest success (compared to WoW anyway). I also can't shake my observation that the qualities which Wolfshead states are essential for good MMO design are already present in EVE Online, and I am unconvinced that merely applying the Blizzard level of polish will turn any MMO into the mega-hit that WoW was. I think the quest to emulate WoW's success is a dangerous chimera, and the sensible approach is for most designers is to identify their target demographic and tailor their worlds for their audience (the way Camelot Unchained is being designed).<br /><br />Ugh, sorry for going on and on - I become formal and long winded when I write and I can't seem to stop myself. In response to your RP query, I haven't RPed for a long time - ironically I started on a RP server, moved to a PvP server, then moved back when cross-realm Rated BGs were implemented because I no longer needed to be in a PvP server to find teams. I did a brief spell in Moon Guard with an alt, and that was the best RP server I have found in my wanderings - it was a real revelation watching people interact in character almost all the time. My RP server is Thorium Brotherhood, and it may possibly be the worst server in WoW. RP is non-existent, PvP is non-existent, and until MoP, we were the worst performing server in terms of raid progression. It's ironic that I play Arenas and Rated BGs almost exclusively nowadays and most of this time was spent on a RP server. It's a sad indictment of the relevance of the game world for PvP in WoW.<br /><br />On your blog you also asked me why ESO holds an attraction for me. Firstly, it is a mainstream title and it will hopefully appeal to my gaming circle. Secondly, I am a massive Elder Scrolls fan, and I've always wanted to share this world with my friends. Thirdly, the massive battle for Cyrodiil and the potential for one of the players to be crowned Emperor should lead to some great battles and factional rivalries. Fourthly, there is no artificial distinction between PvE and PvP gear, which keeps both sides of the game connected - while it might lead to the best raiders being on the OP side of the scale (ala Vanilla WoW) I can deal with it since it's not ladder PvP. I would sacrifice fairness for meaningful world PvP at this point. But Camelot Unchained is what I am pinning my hopes on, and I'm hoping they will be able to put out a game which closely correlates with their foundational principles. That is the type of game I would really like to play - the problem is trying to convince my gaming circle to try it. :DDuke of Ohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09716600365355282982noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9159484030669168383.post-16445771947691292892013-08-10T19:14:54.860-07:002013-08-10T19:14:54.860-07:00Hi Milady,
Thanks for taking the time to comment ...Hi Milady,<br /><br />Thanks for taking the time to comment - I don't know what happened to your first post as I don't have moderation enabled. User error I fear. :D<br /><br />Ironically I ended up writing a response that was bigger than 4096 characters and I had to copy my post to a Word document and split it in two so it would fit. User error I'm afraid. :D<br /><br />Apologies also for the late reply - I have read and digested the replies you have posted on your blog (and also Wolfshead's) but have been unable to reply due to something or other coming up in the last week. Hopefully I can make a considered response now.<br /><br />I used to think that my discontent with WoW stemmed largely from the reasons I have given above - lack of meaningful world PvP - after reading the posts written by yourself, Wolfshead and others I have come to realize that it is part of a much larger malaise affecting virtual worlds in general. If both PvErs and PvPers are making the same complaints about the worlds they inhabit then something really is wrong. Are the worlds we are getting now the best of all possible worlds? Clearly not, and while I don't share Wolfshead's sense of entitlement, the sense that these places could be so much more smacks of wasted opportunities.<br /><br />I've thought that only players could generate meaningful change in virtual worlds, which is why I always go on and on about world PvP and sing praises of EVE Online. I no longer think this way thanks to bloggers like yourself - I can now visualise worlds which, in your words, exist not because of, but in spite of the player. It would be wonderful to be pulled into a world with real emergent behaviour and with real complexity. Imagine exploring the Lost World, creeping furtively from tree to tree, watching in awe as its inhabitants go about their lives, oblivious and uncaring about the puny humans lurking in the shadows. For me meaningful worlds are about story - not the superficial adolescent stories of how heroic we are - but emergent ones which arise from interaction between cooperating and conflicting players. I'm so used to sterile worlds that for me the only emergent narratives worth contemplating were ones derived from player interactions (hence my coverage of the meta-game in EVE). If worlds could somehow be "unflattened" (to use your words) and given shape and personality, then the world could emerge as a player in its own right and have a story of its own, not the superficial crud that passes as lore nowadays. To use the EVE example again, I don't even know the basics of EVE lore, nor do I care - I do, however, know who the big players of nullsec are, and who their traditional allies and adversaries are, simply because they drive the story.Duke of Ohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09716600365355282982noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9159484030669168383.post-48559164771456741092013-08-09T01:32:39.886-07:002013-08-09T01:32:39.886-07:00I enjoyed this post very much, thanks for taking t...I enjoyed this post very much, thanks for taking the time to write it.<br /><br />In the beginning of my MMO gaming career I picked up an RP-PvP (Spanish) server that is now quite frankly deserted. RP players do not mingle well with PvPers, especially when they are non-consensually assailed when trying to make an RP event. It could have been done, posting guards to minimise the griefing, perhaps calling on the same-faction PvP guilds to protect them, even if done OOCly. I came to hate PvPers when I saw that none of this worked against them. <br /><br />With the years and a few insightful posts read here and there, and the fact that my boyfriend is a self-professed griefer, but of the good kind - In war all is fair game, and he doesn't complain when he is the subject of the griefing. With all of this in mind, I understood the important role of PvPers in any virtual world, and I miss them back in Argent Dawn. I've been contemplating moving back to a Rp-PvP realm (English-speaking this time). I might, if I get back to WoW.<br /><br />As I answered to you in a comment in my blog, I think that PvPers are one of the biggest contributing factors to the feeling of inhabiting a world, even if this world is highly static. To me that never seemed to matter in WoW. I did not resent its staticness, because in my few forays as a PvPer I turned (in my head) something static into something very much alive. Stranglethorn Vale, Hellfire Peninsula, Southshore, Barrens, they were always different because of what was going on there, because of who was there. <br /><br />Arenas were not the biggest mistake if you ask me - it was the cross-realm LFD. Yet they were indeed a mistake, because they moved away from a semi-meaningful world interaction to a lobby-based minigame that was often too much for the casual PvPers (as I was then). Too much pressure to perform well so that you could advance to... keep doing the same thing. Or rather to get some gear to be able to defend yourself in the 'real world'. PvP gear was established and suddenly the open-world engagements highly favoured the arena players. It was not an equal confrontation any more. PvEers tears were harvested. I hated the bastards.<br /><br />Slightly unrelated P.S.: Ever interested in RP yourself?<br /><br />P.P.S.: I'm not sure my first comment got through - my fault or moderation?Marta Tornerohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04867565779834259241noreply@blogger.com